Part 1 generated alot of response while Part 2 generated only a few. I hope that Part 3 provokes you enough to give me your thoughts. I am not going to make my usual disclaimer. If you want it then click on either one of the links above.
New Disclaimer: When I refer to the church below I am referring to local congregations in the
I believe there is a generation of people who have spent all their life in the church but continue to have a deep spiritual longing. They have been brainwashed to believe that the local church is the only place that can fill that need. Many who have grown up in the church have been conditioned to believe that just one more program is needed to meet particular needs of individuals, and that will solve the spiritual longing they have. We have programs for EVERYTHING, but it sure seems that many churches lack intimacy, excitement, and the movement of the Spirit. Have we programmed ourselves into complacency? Do we believe we can create a program to foster true intimacy with the Father? What if the heart of the Father is grieved by all of this? I believe in many ways we are trying to take the role of God and fill people’s spiritual hunger. When people visit our congregations with a problem (i.e. divorce) we hand them a spiral bound workbook and send them off to a group. Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t believe that programs are a waste of time or wrong. Many are life changing. However, I do believe that many local congregations use it to stay busy, not to foster intimacy with Jesus. What do you think?
9 comments:
I totally agree.
And what about not even having to bring your Bible to church anymore? It's on the powerpoint for you...oh wait, that's not the Bible, it's "The Message"..some mans version of the Bible. That urks me the most about church...
I am sorry but I feel compelled to respond to anonymous.
Okay some major major holes in your comments.
So what you are telling me is that God's truth is limited to the words on a page. In other words, if Scripture is put anywhere other then on paper then it has lost it's power. Interesting. I guess the Spirit can't speak through anything other than the written bound text. Sucks for everyone living before 1500 since no common man had any form of Scripture to call his own.
Would you not agree that the truth of Scripture is not in the words, but in the Spirit who appropriates the message of those words? If you have never considered your answer to this question, it is very important that you do. It is a major conversaiton in the evangelical community right now and will have major implicaitons in your approach towards Scripture.
John Calvin said that the Spirit is bound to the text, a position that it seems you would affirm. However, I think a less wrong headed stance would be that the text is bound to the Spirit.
Here is my point. Truth is transcendant to words. By saying that it is somehow "wrong" for Scripture to be on PowerPoint is in a very explicit way, limiting God to human language. I wouldn't go there.
Second. "Some man's version of the bible." That is funny because the honest truth is that any translation of the bible, is man's version. All men are perspectival. Meaning, anytime a finite man traslates any part of Scripture, they are projecting their own linguistical, and cultural biases onto the text. Sorry, that is the simple fact. So you are right in saying that the Message is man's version, and so is the New Living, and so is the NIV and so is the RSV and so is any version you will ever read. So let's just accept the fact that man is flawed, and to be honest no body has this totally pure translation and that is perfectly alright. Because remember, it is the Spirit that is truth anyways, not the translation.
By the way, The Message is actually more acurate to the intended meaning of certain passages than more traditional translations. For instance, in the Hebrew, "idols" are actually called - "no-god's" - guess what the Message calls them, "no-gods".
I know this sounds condescending in some ways and that is not totally my intent. However, many people say things like you did without considering what they are saying. Then spiritually lost people hear comments like this and get fed this lie that they are somehow wrong for reading the Message which they have finally started to understand. Weird how it all works, but I am just challenging your thinking on that.
Feel free to respond or not.
Jason--good comments. I recently heard a lecture by Eugene Peterson called "Eat this book" where he talks about the importance of scripture. He is SOLID as far as his approach and prayerful consideration of the text of God. I was very impressed. Unfortunately, we too often critique scripture "but don't let it critique us", as one evangelist put it. Another quote to back up what you are saying that I have pondered is that "the spirit is the preserver of orthodoxy." That is why I love Tozer, because he was a true prayer warrior before he read the Bible or wrote regarding it. He wanted the guidance of the spirit, the "preserver of orthodoxy." Beautiful.
-KB
P.S. Babies are a TON of work! But I still can't wait to get home to see the little guy.:)
By the way, I wasn't the original "anonymous quote".
-KB
Well, I am the anonymous that said the original thing...
I can only say that what I typed came out totally wrong. You are right, that God's truth isn't limited to words on a page. I didn't mean to give that impression at all. I did give the impression that I am against The Message, but after reading what you wrote that all versions of the bible are a man's version, well then I apologize. I was definately wrong. Truth is, I never thought about that.
Yes, it did bother me that in the past year I haven't been to a church that doesn't use The Message. Like you said, I was assuming that it wasn't the "Word of God", but you're right..what makes it any different than NIV, NASB etc etc...?
I'm sorry for all I said. What I really should've expressed is that it was frustrating me that accidentally leaving your Bible at home on the way out to church isn't a problem, because it's up on the powerpoint. Now, I am not against putting the Bible on power point at all. What I don't like is that it seems (to me at least) that many churches these days are mainly teaching "Christian ways of living", etc, backing them up with a verse or two, and not giving us in-depth studies of the Bible. Not that teaching more than just in depth studies is wrong...but to me it doesn't encourage me to go home and find out more about a way of living by furiously searching the Bible. It makes me more wonder if I'm living like a Christian should. Does that make sense?
I guess what I'm saying is I long for more in-depth Bible studies at church also. I don't want to have to join a group to get that. In my opinion, teaching ways of living just teaches us how to be a "good christian" not really living your life for Christ, walking in the Spirit, all that jazz.
Hopefully this makes sense and I haven't dug myself into a bigger hole. If I have, then I digress. I guess I'm bad at expressing my feelings over a blog?
To Mr. anonymous--
That was great insight--it sounds like you are being stirred for deeper insight into God's word. I know that a lot of churches have adopted a more pragmatic form of preaching--"7 keys to faith"; "3 steps to managing your money/time better", etc. Where I personally see the danger in such preaching is that it can create a fallacy that we save ourselves. This is not to shirk away from our own responsibility for spiritual disciplines--Paul told Timothy to "train yourselves to be Godly" and told the church of Corinth that since they have the promises of God, they should "purify themselves of everthing that contaminates, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." I appreciate then that you want to sharpen your mind for spiritual awakening, but ultimately it is a mind and heart issue. As Jesus said, "Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Sounds like you have got a heart that wants to know God more deeply, and serve him more fully. If that is the case---buckle up! God can really do something with that heart and mind.
As far as the church goes, I have found that pointing a finger at "what is wrong with the church" is ultimately useless. Instead, we should ask ourselves how we can become more involved to make a difference and to pray that God moves within our church. Always active! Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
KB
Anonymous
I think I came across really stronger than I wanted. I was kind of in a bad mood when I wrote that anyways. I was kind of hoping you would come back strong and challenge some of those things I said just to get into a pointless argument with you.
However, you have some great insight and are on the right track! Keep thinking hard!
Here is a huge parallel to the original post: Our American/Christian marriages have been reduced to surface. To be a good husband I should learn and discern the 5 love languages and go on marriage retreats and etc. In other words I have been incredibly passionate to learn how to be a great husband. I have been mislead. After 6 years of perfecting the lists I find myself still missing Leslie's heart. But when I trash the theory and guidlines and just hunt down her heart...wow. It took me six years (not lazy, but dilligent years) to taste my first sip of her heart. And I am intoxicated. There is a whole seperate marriage topic here, but I'll go back to the impact this has on our churches. People are in search of the heart of Christ. They are really trying hard. But they are betrayed by their fellowship. Lots of services. lots of ministries. Lots of progressive levels of discipleship. Not so much genuine connection to Jesus. I believe there is incredible value in the fellowship of churches. I just haven't seen or felt it as my heart says it should be. But to connect with Jesus' heart. That is what I want. Can that be taught? In this moment I would say no. I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with this post. My point is not to offer a solution, but to point out a parallel that may help us understand the issues. So let me go back to the parallel. Forget about listening skills, and acts of service. Forget about the general needs of men and women. Forget about everything you've ever learned about "loving" your spouse. Now just go look for her heart. Ask a thousand questions. Not to fulfill your role. But to discover her heart. I can tell you how I found Leslie's heart, but I would hesitate for you to imitate it. My way is not the way. Yours will be different. What I see is a mass of people who are good at surface loving which on the surface looks like a good thing. But what if the framework for that good surface loving was stripped away. And what if it caused you to fall half intentionally/half accidentally into a level of depth that captivated you. Bottom lines: You are taught to be shallow with Jesus and your spouse. There are "good" things that teach you that. There is a whole new level that you have to feel for yourself.
P.S. I used to want to have my own blog. Now I think, "After 30 minutes of my time and 15 of yours, no one knows what in the heck I'm trying to say."
Richard--30 minutes well spent. Enjoyed what you wrote and wholeheartedly agree.
Post a Comment